为什么石器农具时代的古埃及可以养活千万人口？而有铁农具美洲作物的拿破仑时代埃及只有200多万? 第1页

埃及养活古希腊属于是误传，除了知乎外并没有所谓“砖家”支持这点。

在后世的罗马帝国时期，埃及和突尼斯倒是有帝国粮仓的美誉，可能随着信息传播出现了扭曲，有人附会到古希腊上了。而且古希腊是个文化概念，南意大利的希腊城邦也属于古希腊范围（那里还被称作大希腊），南意可是盛产粮食的，没必要和黑海地区贸易。

另外，黑海也是有希腊城邦存在的。对黑海地区的历史研究一直都有，只不过除了专业人士外没人会注意这些成果。近来吵着埃及养活希腊的问题变火了，有人把这部分研究找出来了而已。你不知道不代表没有。

改问题？原题是：为什么以前砖家博士信誓旦旦的说是古埃及养活希腊？而到了现在又信誓旦旦说是乌克兰及黑海养活古希腊呢?

新问题也属于立靶子自己打，古埃及各个时期的人口都没有千万之多。在人口最高的托勒密时代也大约四百万人。拿破仑时代的埃及经历过奥斯曼统治，也经历过叛乱，不能将其视作常态。此外自然环境的恶化影响比生产技术的影响更大。

有些人在评论区里刷无关内容，我就不折叠了。用争议的部分内容来否定整体存在，将这个逻辑扩大使用的话，地球都可以是伪造的。

因为希腊购买粮食向来都是多渠道的，古埃及养活古希腊没错，黑海养活古希腊也没错，那不勒斯养活古希腊也没错，昔兰尼加养活古希腊也没错，西西里养活古希腊也没错，古希腊养活古希腊也没错。

古希腊不是什么粮食都种不出来，而是部分城邦比如雅典过度的人口集中和有限的耕地导致必须粮食进口，而像斯巴达底比斯这类城邦在粮食上可以自给自足。

就像中国古代的京师需要各地不断地输粮，然后河北人拍着胸脯说，京师是我们养活的，对吗？对。但是山西人又说了，其实是京师是我们养活的，对吗？也对。接着什么江苏，浙江，山东，陕西……他们难道没有养活京师吗？的确是养活了啊。

雅典或者是古希腊也正是如此，如果问及为什么这些地方的人要卖粮给雅典，原因也很简单。雅典有阿提卡银矿，就是说有钱，同时雅典拥有海上霸权和发达的商业网络，雅典在地中海世界充当的角色有点类似于维多利亚时代的英国。当然整个葱岭以西的霸主绝对还是波斯。

惟有雅典人可以同时拥有希腊人和异族人的财富。如果某个城邦盛产造船木材，但是若未经海洋霸主的同意，又能将它运销到哪里去呢？如果某个城邦盛产铁，铜或者亚麻，若不征得海洋霸主的同意，他们会把它们运销到何处呢？要知道，我的那些舰船就是用这些材料建造的。木材产自一个地方，铁产自另一个地方，铜,亚麻和蜡均产自不同的地方。

此外，他们严禁其他人向我们的敌人输出这类物品，违者将遭到海上封锁。因此，我无需费力，就因为控制了海洋，而得到陆地上的各种物产，其他城邦甚至不能同时拥有其中两样东西：一个城邦不能同时拥有木材和亚麻，凡是盛产亚麻的地方，土地光秃秃的，林木及其稀少；一个城邦甚至不能既盛产铜又盛产铁，每个城邦只能拥有一种东西，而不能同时盛产两种或三种。

此外，每一块大陆沿岸，或有突出的海角，或者附近有岛屿，或者有海峡。这样，海军可以从那里突入，袭掠当地的居民。

这段话出自伪色诺芬的雅典政制，希望以后质疑希腊粮食买卖的人把其他物资一起带上，不要显得自己很无知。

文献说明公元前五世纪末雅典粮价为三德拉克马每麦斗（52.3升左右），而一名熟练工人的工资为一德拉克马一天。

woc，改问题了可还行？题主原问题是为什么现在知乎信史派从古希腊向埃及进口粮食转向从黑海进口粮食，我可没有偏题。

关于埃及的人口问题，我只能说阿拉伯到奥斯曼的统治实在是太仁慈了，埃及的人口被霍霍的不止没涨还跌了，当然土地荒漠化也是一个原因，拿破仑面对的就是那个在奥斯曼统治下人口越来越少的埃及，同时古代埃及没有千万人，别拿个靶子在那里打。

关于希腊粮食进口问题，本人刚刚看了一篇几万字的论文，发现讲得还不够详细，好在论文下方提供了文献，希望大家多多传阅，全看完我保证全知乎没有人比你更动古希腊粮食进口。

Primary Sources

Literary Works

Many of the literary works listed below are available in the Loeb Classical Library and Penguin Classics series in English translations.

Aristotle, Politics (particularly 1.1258b37-1.1259a5)

In his study of the polis, Aristotle devotes this section to modes of acquisition and criticizes what we would call “capitalism.”

[Aristotle], Oikonomikos (Economics – “household management”)

Book 2 shows how states obtain revenues. The methods are largely coercive, not productive, such as cornering the market in grain during a famine, debasing coinage, etc.

Demosthenes and [Demosthenes], speeches

Especially useful are several speeches for lawsuits involving economic matters.

Hesiod, Works and Days

A poem containing advice and attitudes about farming in the early Archaic period, c 700 B.C.

Homer, Iliad and Odyssey

Two great epic poems with much information about economic practices at the outset of the Archaic period, c. 800-750 B.C.

Isokrates, speeches (especially Trapezitikos and On the Peace)

On the Peace argues for economic activity rather than warfare as a means of obtaining revenues for the state. Trapezitikos concerns a lawsuit involving trade and banking.

Lysias, speeches (especially On the Grain Retailers)

Plato, Republic and Laws

These two dialogues concern the organization of the polis. Although the Republic represents the ideal city-state and the Laws presents a more realistic picture, both betray an elitist disdain for non-landed economic activities.

Xenophon, Oikonomikos (Economics – “household management”) and Poroi (Revenues)

Two extended essays on household management and the means by which the state may obtain more revenues, respectively. The latter is one of the most important documents concerning state interests in trade and mining.

[Xenophon] “The Old Oligarch” (or “Constitution of the Athenians”)

This is an anonymous mid-fifth-century B.C. political pamphlet that argues that the life-blood of Athenian democracy is the economic exploitation of the so-called “allies” of Athens.

Collections of Primary Sources: Documentary, Epigraphic, and Material

Burstein, S.M. The Hellenistic Age from the Battle of Ipsos to the Death of Kleopatra VII. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1985.

A collection of documents, including inscriptions, translated into English.

Fornara, C.W. From Archaic Times to the End of the Peloponnesian War, second edition. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983.

A collection of documents, including inscriptions, translated into English.

Harding, P. From the End of the Peloponnesian War to the Battle of Ipsus. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1985.

A collection of documents, including inscriptions, translated into English.

Meijer, F. and O. van Nijf. Trade, Transport, and Society in the Ancient World. New York and London: Routledge, 1992.

A sourcebook of documents translated into English.

Thompson, M., O. Mørkholm, and C.M. Kraay, editors. An Inventory of Greek Coin Hoards. New York: American Numismatic Society, 1973.

Essential listing of all discovered hoards of ancient Greek coins up to 1973.

Wiedemann, T. Greek and Roman Slavery. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1981.

Excellent collection of documents on Greek and Roman slavery translated into English.

Secondary Sources

General Works and Surveys

Austin, M.M. and P. Vidal-Naquet. Economic and Social History of Ancient Greece. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1977.

Provides both a survey of the subject and excerpts from the primary sources of evidence. It adheres to the Finley model in general.

Austin, M.M. 1988. “Greek Trade, Industry, and Labor.” In Civilization of the Ancient Mediterranean: Greece and Rome, volume 2, edited by M. Grant and R. Kitzinger, 723-51. New York: Scribner’s.

Often insightful overview of the ancient Greek economy primarily from the Finley perspective.

Cambridge Ancient History (CAH), second edition. Several volumes. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

The standard encyclopedia of ancient history with entries on various subjects, including the ancient Greek economy at different periods, by leading scholars.

Finley, M. I. The Ancient Economy, second edition. Berkeley: University of California Press. 1985. (Now available in an “Updated Edition” with a foreword by Ian Morris. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1999.)

The most influential book on the subject since its initial publication in 1973. It takes a synchronic approach to the Greek and Roman economies and argues that they cannot be analyzed or understood in terms appropriate for modern economic analysis. In general, the ancient Greek economy was “embedded” in “non-economic” social and political values and institutions. Heavily influenced by Weber, Hasebroek, and Polanyi.

Hasebroek, J. Trade and Politics in Ancient Greece. Translated by L.M. Fraser and D.C. MacGregor. Reprint. London, 1933. (Originally published as Staat und Handel im alten Griechenland [Tübingen, 1928].)

A classic that greatly influenced Finley.

Hopper, R.J. Trade and Industry in Classical Greece. London: Thames and Hudson, 1979.

Survey of various aspects of the ancient Greek economy in the Classical period.

Humphreys, S.C. “Economy and Society in Classical Athens.” Annali della Scuola Normale Superiore di Pisa 39 (1970):1-26.

An important survey that also argues for focused studies on individual sectors of the ancient Greek economy at particular times and places.

Lowry, S.T. “Recent Literature on Ancient Greek Economic Thought.” Journal of Economic Literature 17 (1979): 65-86.

Michell, H. The Economics of Ancient Greece, second edition. Cambridge: W. Heffer, 1963.

Slightly dated, but useful survey.

Morris, Ian. “The Ancient Economy Twenty Years after The Ancient Economy.” Classical Philology 89 (1994): 351-366.

Excellent survey of new approaches to the study of the ancient Greek and Roman economies since Finley, to whose model the author is generally sympathetic.

Oxford Classical Dictionary (OCD), third revised edition, edited by S. Hornblower and A. Spawforth. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2003.

Includes brief entries by leading scholars on various aspects of the ancient Greek economy.

Pearson, H.W. “The Secular Debate on Economic Primitivism.” In Trade and Market in the Early Empires, edited by K. Polanyi, C.M. Arensberg, and H.W. Pearson, 3-11. Glencoe, IL: Free Press, 1957.

A concise statement of the influential ideas of Karl Polyani about the ancient Greek economy.

Rostovtzeff, M. The Social and Economic History of the Hellenistic World. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1941.

Monumental “modernist” approach to a wealth of archaeological evidence about the economy during the Hellenistic period.

Samuel, A.E. From Athens to Alexandria: Hellenism and Social Goals in Ptolemaic Egypt. Lovanii, 1983.

A good survey with an important discussion of ancient Greek attitudes toward economic growth.

Starr, C.G. The Economic and Social Growth of Early Greece, 800-500 B.C. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1977.

Modernist survey.

Weber, M. Economy and Society. Translated by E. Fischoff et al. Edited by G. Roth and C.

Wittich. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1968. (Originally published as Wirtschaft und Gesellschaft [Tübingen, 1956].)

A classic that greatly influenced Hasebroek and Finley.

Collections

Archibald, Z.H., J. Davies, and G. Oliver. Hellenistic Economies. London: Routledge, 2001.

Collection of articles that take the study of the economy in the Hellenistic period beyond Rostovtzeff.

Cartledge, P., E.E. Cohen, and L. Foxhall. Money, Labour, and Land: Approaches to the Economies of Ancient Greece. London: Routledge, 2002.

Finley, M.I. Economy and Society in Ancient Greece. Edited by B.D. Shaw and R.P. Saller. New York: Viking, 1982.

Garnsey, P. Non-Slave Labour in the Graeco-Roman World. Cambridge: Cambridge Philological Society, 1980.

Garnsey, P., K. Hopkins, and C.R. Whittaker. Trade in the Ancient Economy. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1983.

A collection of articles along Finley lines.

Mattingly, D.J. and J. Salmon. Economies beyond Agriculture in the Classical World. London: Routledge, 2001.

A collection of articles that focuses on the non-agrarian sectors of the ancient Greek and Roman economies with a mind to revising the Finley model.

Meadows, A. and K. Shipton. Money and Its Uses in the Ancient Greek World. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001.

A collection of articles on the use of money and coinage in ancient Greece.

Parkins, H. and C. Smith. Trade, Traders, and the Ancient City. London: Routledge, 1998.

Scheidel, W. and S. von Reden. The Ancient Economy. London: Routledge, 2002.

An excellent collection of some of the most important articles on the ancient Greek and Roman economy from the last 30 years with a helpful introduction, notes, and glossary. Especially useful is their “Guide to Further Reading,” pp. 272-278.

Specialized Works

Brock, R. “The Labour of Women in Classical Athens.” Classical Quarterly 44 (1994): 336-346.

Burke, E.M. “The Economy of Athens in the Classical Era: Some Adjustments to the Primitivist Model.” Transactions of the American Philological Association 122 (1992): 199-226.

A good argument that attempts to adjust the Finley model.

Carradice, I. and M. Price. Coinage in the Greek World. London: Seaby, 1988.

A brief, accessible survey.

Cohen, E. E. Athenian Economy and Society: A Banking Perspective. Princeton: Princeton University Press, 1992.

A close philological study of the evidence for banking practices in Classical Athens that argues for a disembedded economy with productive credit transactions.

Engen, D.T. Athenian Trade Policy, 415-307 B.C.: Honors and Privileges for Trade-Related Services. Ph.D. dissertation, UCLA, 1996. (This dissertation is currently being revised for publication as a book tentatively entitled, Honor and Profit: Athenian Trade Policy, 415-307 B.C.E.)

Examines Athenian state honors for those performing services relating to trade and argues for a revision of some aspects of the Finley model.

Engen, D.T. “Trade, Traders, and the Economy of Athens in the Fourth Century B.C.E.” In Prehistory and History: Ethnicity, Class, and Political Economy, edited by David W. Tandy, 179-202. Montreal: Black Rose, 2001.

Argues for the diversity of those responsible for trade involving Classical Athens.

Engen, D.T. “Ancient Greenbacks: Athenian Owls, the Law of Nikophon, and the Ancient Greek Economy.” Historia, forthcoming(a).

Argues that the numismatic policies of Athens may indicate a state interest in exports.

­­­­­Engen, D.T. “Seeing the Forest for the Trees of the Ancient Economy.” Ancient History Bulletin, forthcoming(b).

A review article of Meadows and Shipton, 2001, and Scheidel and von Reden, 2002, that argues for the mutual compatibility of broad and detailed studies of the ancient Greek and Roman economies.

Finley, M.I. The World of Odysseus, revised edition. Harmondsworth: Penguin, 1965.

A brief and highly readable survey of the early Archaic period.

Fisher, N.R.E. Slavery in Classical Greece. London: Bristol Classical Press, 1993.

A brief survey.

Garlan, Y. Slavery in Ancient Greece, revised edition. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1988.

The standard survey of slavery in ancient Greece.

Garnsey, P. Famine and Food Supply in the Greco-Roman World. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1988.

Examines private and public strategies to ensure food supplies.

Isager, S. and J.E. Skydsgaard. Ancient Greek Agriculture: An Introduction. London: Routledge, 1992.

Kim, H.S. “Archaic Coinage as Evidence for the Use of Money.” In Money and Its Uses in the Ancient Greek World, edited by A. Meadows and K. Shipton, 7-21. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001.

Argues that the existence of large quantities of small-denomination coins from the earliest of coinage in ancient Greece is evidence of the economic use of coinage.

Kraay, C.M. Archaic and Classical Greek Coins. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1976.

Long the standard survey of ancient Greek coinage.

Kurke, L. The Traffic in Praise: Pindar and the Poetics of Social Economy. Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1991.

Takes the new cultural history approach to analyzing the poetry of Pindar and how it represents money within the social and political value system of ancient Greece.

Kurke, L. Coins, Bodies, Games, and Gold: The Politics of Meaning in Archaic Greece, 1999. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

Millett, P. Lending and Borrowing in Ancient Athens. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1991.

Reinforces the Finley model by arguing that lending and borrowing was primarily for consumptive purposes and embedded among traditional communal values in Athens.

Osborne, R. Classical Landscape with Figures: The Ancient Greek City and Its Countryside. London: George Philip, 1987.

Explores rural production and exchange within political and religious contexts.

Sallares, R. The Ecology of the Ancient Greek World. London: Duckworth, 1991.

Interdisciplinary analysis of a massive amount of information on a wide variety of aspects of the ecology of ancient Greece.

Schaps, David M. The Invention of Coinage and the Monetization of Ancient Greece. Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press, 2004.

Shipton, K. “Money and the Elite in Classical Athens.” In Money and Its Uses in the Ancient Greek World, edited by A. Meadows and K. Shipton, 129-44. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2001.

Argues that the elite of Athens preferred leasing high-profit silver mines to public land.

Tandy, D. Warriors into Traders: The Power of the Market in Early Greece. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1997.

Traces developments in the economy of the Archaic period and argues that they had an important impact in the formation of the basic social and political institutions of the polis.

Von Reden, S. Exchange in Ancient Greece. London: Duckworth. 1995.

Employs the methods of new cultural history to argue that exchange in ancient Greece was thoroughly embedded in non-economic social, religious, and political institutions and practices.

Von Reden, S. “Money, Law, and Exchange: Coinage in the Greek Polis.” Journal of Hellenic Studies 107 (1997): 154-176.

A cultural historical study of the representational uses of coinage in the social, political, and economic life of ancient Greece at the advent of the use of coinage.

White, K.D. Greek and Roman Technology. London: Thames and Hudson, 1984.

1 Portions of this article have or will appear in other forms in Engen, 1996, Engen, 2001, Engen, Forthcoming(a), and Engen, Forthcoming(b).

2 This article will not discuss the preceding Mycenaean period (c. 1700-1100 B.C.) and “Dark Age” (c. 1100-776 B.C.E.). During the Mycenaean period, the ancient Greeks had primarily a Near Eastern style palace-controlled, redistributive economy, but this crumbled on account of violent disruptions and population movements, leaving Greece largely in the “dark” and the economy depressed for most of the next 300 years.
Citation: Engen, Darel. “The Economy of Ancient Greece”. http://EH.Net Encyclopedia, edited by Robert Whaples. July 31, 2004. URL http://eh.net/encyclopedia/the-economy-of-ancient-greece/