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为什么说美国南北战争是一场违宪的战争? 第1页

  

user avatar    网友的相关建议: 
      

这个问题是区分你是不是极右翼的分界标志。


我确实也认为南北战争是违宪的,是一场南方发动的试图用违宪手段脱离联邦的战争。

转一下 @King Kwan@talich 的答案:

——————————————————————————————


作者:King Kwan

链接:林肯发动南北战争是否属于违宪? - King Kwan 的回答

来源:知乎

著作权归作者所有,转载请联系作者获得授权。


TLDR:林肯一没挑起内战,二没违反宪法。南方叛乱州为了维护奴隶制分裂国家才是最严重的违宪行为。


哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈哈答主要嘲讽了:答主不是针对某个lost causer,答主是说在座的lost causers都是垃圾

lost causer不愧为美国的果粉,从智商到脸皮全方位向中国果粉看齐。一百五十多年过去了,有几个美国人还记得……美国人确实历史水平堪忧,然而这种鬼话拿来唬傻小子都唬不了。南方退出联邦,美其名曰“维护州权”,州权个灯笼,不就是想家里养奴隶吗?还意淫什么宪法赋予的权利,也是病的不轻。南方强行分裂后要求萨姆特堡守军投降,被拒后主动开火引发内战,到头来居然算到林肯身上?答主好歹也是AP美国历史考过5分的人,花式黑林肯的教材见得多了,就是没见过批判林肯发动内战的。题主可否详细告知您看的是哪个州哪个出版社出的哪个无赖编的哪本教材?


说什么林肯维持联邦是违宪,狗奴隶主也配提宪法?宪法开头怎么说的?

We the People of the United States,
in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice,insure
domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the
general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and
our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United
States of America.

拿宪法说事简直不知羞耻。脱离联邦不就是最严重的违宪行为吗?建立完正的联盟、匡扶正义、保障内部和谐、共同捍卫国家安全、促进公共福利,南方的叛乱州做到哪一点了?


The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the
States respectively, or to the people.

这是lost causer们最爱的第十修正案,答主就问问哪句明确说了州可以退出联邦?如果说没明确说就是默许的话,宪法也没允许或禁止联邦政府维持联邦,批判林肯的底气又是哪来的?


面对南方的分裂,林肯是这么说的

What is now combatted, is the position that secession is consistent with
the Constitution—is lawful, and peaceful. It is not contended that
there is any express law for it; and nothing should ever be implied as
law, which leads to unjust, or absurd consequences. The nation
purchased, with money, the countries out of which several of these
States were formed. Is it just that they shall go off without leave, and
without refunding? The nation paid very large sums, (in the aggregate, I
believe, nearly a hundred millions) to relieve Florida of the
aboriginal tribes. Is it just that she shall now be off without consent,
or without making any return? The nation is now in debt for money
applied to the benefit of these so-called seceding States, in common
with the rest. Is it just, either that creditors shall go unpaid, or the
remaining States pay the whole? A part of the present national debt was
contracted to pay the old debts of Texas. Is it just that she shall
leave, and pay no part of this herself?

几个叛乱州的土地都是联邦政府借钱买的,德克萨斯州尤甚。叛乱州把债一甩拍屁股走人,让联邦政府接着还钱?无耻也要有个限度好吧。


林肯并没有拿奴隶制说事,本来北方打内战也不是为了黑奴打的。实际上直到后来北军缺人的时候他才搞出来《解放黑人奴隶宣言》,想挖一把南军的墙角。然而南方这些道貌岸然的奴隶主老爷,可是时刻悬着一颗心呐。别说答主圣母心,美国的奴隶制、奴隶贸易就是人类历史上黑暗血腥的一页,谁敢否认?不管lost causer怎么百般抵赖,南方为了维护奴隶制分裂国家发动内战的事实都是洗刷不清的。脱离联邦的理由么,奴隶主们说得清清楚楚,lost causer们不要像果粉一样装看不见。


乔治亚州

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with
the Government of the United States of America, present to their
confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation.
For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of
complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery.

密西西比州

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the
product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions
of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate
verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none
but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun.

南卡罗莱纳州

We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have
been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of
them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have
assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic
institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery;
they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose
avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the
citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection.

德克萨斯州

Texas abandoned her separate national existence and consented to become
one of the Confederated Union... She was received into the
confederacy...as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting
the institution known as negro slavery — the servitude of the African to
the white race within her limits — a relation that had existed from
the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her
people intended should exist in all future time.
In all the non-slave-holding States… the people have formed
themselves into a great sectional party… based upon an unnatural feeling
of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and
patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine
of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color — a doctrine at
war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in
violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the
abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition
of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their
determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro
slave remains in these States
all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil
and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as
existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free,
and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind,
and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all
Christian nations

敬爱的大总统戴维斯,千万lost causer的精神领袖,千古完人戴公说得尤其好

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its
foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth 'that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.

以压迫和剥削为荣,于黑奴的血泪与尸骨之上聚拢财富,拿崇尚公义的宪法做挡箭牌——答主从未见过如此厚颜无耻之人。


欢迎精神南方人前来撕逼。


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@talich 的答案:

美国南北战争的真正原因是什么? - talich 的回答


user avatar   rodneyxp2002 网友的相关建议: 
      

先说一下目前排名第一的答案的一点法理学上的错误。

为什么说美国南北战争是一场违宪的战争? - 你球药丸的回答
各州毫无疑问是可以脱离联邦的,因为没有任何法律规定不允许脱离。即使打官司到最高法院,最高法院也没法判。如果按照成文法,没有法律规定;而如果按照习惯法,美国脱离英国怎么算?
好了或者我们不妨来个假设,即使南北战争后也没有任何法律规定不允许退出联邦,那么如果得克萨斯州今年公投独立了,请问美国政府打算制止吗?

当然了,战后最高法院在Texas v. White这个案子里重新解释了独立问题,最高法院的解释是独立是不合法的。但问题是,那是战争后,战争前并没有这个判例。而且即使战后有了这个判例,今天这个时代,请问美国政府真敢执行这个判例吗?

第一段最后一个问题很简单,美国脱离英国当然就是违宪的(unconstitutional/illegal)。也就是说,这是一场革命。借用凯尔森在《法与国家的一般理论》中对革命的说法:

从法学观点来看, 革命的决定性标准就是现行秩序已由新秩序在以前一个秩序本身所不曾料到的方式下加以推翻和代替。

实际上《独立宣言》也就这么说的:

that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain

按照当时对英国宪法的定义,英国宪法是Mixed Constitution,英国宪法就是King-in-Parliament。美国革命的行为就是废除King-in-Parliament的Mixed Constitution,并制定新宪法。

第二个问题,需要分清楚的是,战后最高法院的行为是立法行为亦或是法律解释?

如果是立法行为,那么除非它明确表达,否则它是没有溯及既往的能力的。

如果是法律解释,那么它就是溯及既往的。因为很简单,法律解释的效力是附着于原始条文的而非另立新法。所以战争前后与否,没有什么意义。

  • 打个比方:某条刑法规定某项罪行,人们对此有争议。某人因为这项条文而被控告。法院在判决中对此做出澄清,并判处此人刑罚。法院的这个行为并不违反刑法不溯及既往的原则,因为本质上这是对法律的解释,某人因为对法律的错误理解而违法。

美国联邦最高法院的法律解释在法律体系上具有最高效力,那么,无非就是战争前南方人认为有退出权对宪法的理解错了,后来最高法院才厘清而已。

至于“请问美国政府真敢执行这个判例吗”这个问题,则对法理学上两个相近的概念没有弄明白:效力(validity)和实效(efficacy)。法理学和政治哲学关心前者,法律社会学和政治科学关心后者。

以下是私货:

南方脱离联邦的行为究竟是否是违宪?或者说是否是革命行为?当然就是,个人觉得没什么好说的。宪法一词的原意和本质是政体(polity)。

除非像苏联宪法那样直接规定退出权及其程序,否则必定是需要修宪程序的。

与其大家按照自己的理解去解释,倒不如去读读各州的脱离宣言,看一下他们自己对此的解释是什么。

以南卡为例(如果我没记错的话,南卡的脱离宣言是最早通过的)。

"Declaration of Immediate Causes Which May Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union," 24 December 1860

根本论点就是《宪法》条约论:

and we hold further, that the mode of its formation subjects it to a third fundatmental principle, namely: the law of compact.

该宣言的其他论点,比如《独立宣言》的sovereign state论、第十修正案保留权力论,都必须和这个论点结合起来,不然没有任何意义。即,联邦宪法是各州(states)之间的联合协议,而联邦政府和废奴各州的废奴行为侵害了南方各州的财产权和主权从而违背了协议。也只有在宪法条约论的基础上,才能有单方面的退出权,否则即使有退出权也不是单方面的。

The Guaranties of the Constitution will then no longer exist; the equal rights of the States will be lost. The slaveholding States will no longer have the power of selfgovernment, or self-protection, and the Federal Government will have become their enemy.

请注意引文的guaranties一词,这也是建立在《宪法》条约论的基础上的,将宪法理解为一旦一方违约就可以撕毁的条约。南卡据此认为,联邦已经不存在了。

而如果是法律的话,则不同于条约——即使法律治下的某些人(法人)违法,也不代表法律失效。

have solemnly declared that the Union heretofore existing between this State and the other States of North America, is dissolved,

heretofore一词的意思是“在此之前”、before now。从这句话而言,其实南方并不是用的“退出权”,而是说,联邦已经解散了

同时,请注意第十修正案的措辞:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

the people而非the peoples,这个措辞和宪法序言开头一样:We the people of United States,...。换句话说,确定宪法的是“人民”整体,而非各州(states)或各州人民(peoples)之间的协议。某一州要退出宪法,也要所有美国人民决定。也正是如此,We the People这三个字在美国宪法解释上具有重要意义。回顾一下美国宪法的序言,请注意我标粗的字词。

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

其中,横线是从句,拿掉从句则句子是这样的:“We the people of the United States do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America”。这就很好读了。

其实,在《独立宣言》中的说法就是混合的了。一方面,正如南卡的宣言中所说,独立宣言规定了各州的sovereignty。另一方面,独立宣言又宣称是one people/a free people。大家可以对照另一份文件,联合国宪章序言的措辞就是用的peoples。

We the peoples of the United Nations Determined:

类似的,未能生效的欧盟宪法条约和替代它的里斯本条约,在序言部分的措辞都是“the peoples of Europe”。

另外,我觉得第十修正案的保留权力说法没有意义的还在于,退出联邦以及南方各州从新组成新邦联的行为上是修宪或者说废弃宪法的,而这恰恰在第五条修宪条款规定了可以通过修宪会议来确定。

又及,南卡脱离宣言是由Convention而非Congress或者Parliament等机构通过的。在英美法律史上,convention是一种非宪定/法定机构之外/非常设的会议。在中世纪,用来废除国王或者另立新君,1689年的光荣革命中颁布《权利法案》的会议也叫convention或者convention-parliament。从费城会议起翻译成了”制宪会议“。换句话说,在英美国家举行convention时就意味着通过政治而非法律的方式解决问题。这个可以查一下《布莱克威尔政治学百科全书》有条文的。南卡用这个名字,其意义也很明显了。

南卡的脱离宣言是刚刚仓促读的,欢迎指正。




  

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